Home > foreknowledge, freewill, judgment, sin, sovereignty > >Does God ordain evil?

>Does God ordain evil?

>God may will certain events. These events may involve sinful actions of men. Some have suggested that because God ordains these events then God is ordaining evil.

God does not desire evil nor ordain evil. When addressing the actions of God there are some subtle issues that need to be kept in mind.

Firstly, there are actions that God does that are not intrinsically sin despite the fact that man doing the same action would be sin. This is not arbitrary, this is because the action does not apply to God. Take killing as an example. God can kill but God cannot murder. This is because he created us and owns us. He is the author of life and can remove it at will. However man can murder. But not all killing is murder. So a man executing a criminal is carrying out God’s command for justice and neither the man nor God are sinning.

Let us suppose that God wills that a particular evil man should die. God could:

  1. kill him directly;
  2. command a ruler to execute him (judgment from a judge for his sin);
  3. command a man/ army to kill him (compare David); or
  4. allow a murderer to kill him.

In all but the last situation neither God nor the killer is sinning. In the last case the man is sinning but God is using it for his purposes. Note that in the last example God is not commanding the murderer to murder. Rather the would-be-murderer is to resist sin. In resisting murder (sin) he is obeying God. This is the best course he should take. Resisting sin in this situation does not thwart God’s will. God can still see to the execution of the evil man he wishes dead. The will of God here is that a person be put to death. It is not God’s will that a man commits murder.

If God wills a person to kill the evil man then he is not a murderer, he is acting as God’s agent of judgment (example 3) and is not sinning. God can command a person with the authority of the sword to put him to death. That person is doing God’s will and is not sinning.

If God desires something, how can God will a man to do an action and God be without sin yet the man be with sin despite being obedient to God’s intention in his life? Of course God can use evil men, but God does not intend for any man to be evil, he intends for them to repent. In our example God is not intending for the murderer to murder, he intends for the evil man to be put to death. That God does not prevent a murder and uses it for his goal does not make him the author of evil nor does it make murder God’s intention. The best option is for the (potential) murderer to repent of his intended actions and let God carry out his intentions on the life of the person another way. God can know the plans of a wicked man to murder said person. It is God’s will that the man be put to death. It is not God’s will that the person murder him.

That God knows murders will happen does not mean he approves.

Secondly, God does not necessarily ordain things that he uses. God can bring good out of evil, even greater good than had the evil not happened. This does not mean that God desires that the evil happens.

One cannot observe consequences of God working through the actions of evil men and assume that God’s activity equals his approval.

Take teaching truth as an example. False doctrine tests us. Responding to false doctrine may aid us in understanding true doctrine better. God may also use false teaching to purify his people. But better no false teaching than some false teaching. Spreading falsehood means judgment for both those who teach it and those who follow it.

  1. 2008 August 13 at 00:05

    Dear Bethyada,
    Some great points here. I really like this one:
    That God does not prevent a murder and uses it for his goal does not make him the author of evil nor does it make murder God’s intention.
    God permits evil, not for the sake of evil, but for the greater good He will bring out of it.
    God be with you,
    Dan

  2. michael
    2008 August 13 at 01:03

    Bethyada,
    care to comment on this verse:
    Jdg 9:23 And God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the leaders of Shechem, and the leaders of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech,
    Or here:
    1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him.
    1Sa 16:15 And Saul’s servants said to him, “Behold now, a harmful spirit from God is tormenting you.
    1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command your servants who are before you to seek out a man who is skillful in playing the lyre, and when the harmful spirit from God is upon you, he will play it, and you will be well.”
    And my all time favorite evil spirit here:
    1Ki 22:19 And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left;
    1Ki 22:20 and the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another.
    1Ki 22:21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will entice him.’
    1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’
    1Ki 22:23 Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you.”

  3. michael
    2008 August 14 at 18:36

    Bethyada
    natamllc=michael

  4. michael
    2008 August 17 at 00:56

    Bethyada,
    you wrote: God does not desire evil nor ordain evil.
    Let me edit your sentence and make two of them from that one and see if we can agree on that then?
    God, now modified by your modification DOES NOT DESIRE EVIL.
    God does ordain evil and Bethyada’s modification makes it clear.
    Does that clear up the challenge to your earlier double assertions, [God does not desire evil nor ordain evil.]?
    Again, I will again assert that God does ordain evil.
    michael

  5. 2008 August 17 at 04:03

    Michael, this is what I think:
    God does not ordain that people become or choose evil.
    God does not desire that evil occurs.
    And see my response to your verses quoted above. If God sends evil spirits does he cause evil?

  6. michael
    2008 August 17 at 15:32

    Quite honestly bethyada, now you are dodging and hedging your title question.
    Of course God does not want us to become or choose evil. We already are by birth. We are of Adam’s nature from the moment of conception. Adam life begins at conception.
    That is not the question nor is it what Genesis is all about. Genesis is a book of beginnings. It takes reading the entire body of scripture which long ago and in a far away land a group of people chose by God’s Grace to be the body of Scripture we read plus revelation from God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.
    The eternal purpose is understood only by the revelation of God. No amount of study and research and thought and meditation attains to the revelation. The revelation is from, by and for the eternal purpose and for the glory of God not for any creation, Elect or reprobate, Elect Angel or demon, [fallen angel].
    I am not trying to be argumentative or strive with you. You seem to be open minded enough to dialog with me on this matter.
    I would that your reader saw you publish that “God does ordain evil”.
    Man has no say in any of this. You have no say in this. You do not have a choice. You did not choose your parents and neither did they, they, they.
    As True Believers and by His Faith, we believe we all come from two parents created by Three Eternal Beings.
    by His Grace through His Faith

  7. Starwind
    2008 August 18 at 15:39

    Michael:
    “Ordain” means to enact or decree, to consecrate, to invest with priestly authority, or order.
    In scripture the Hebrew words typically translated “ordain” or “consecrate” (depending on translation) are H4390 maÌ‚laÌ‚'(to consecrate, fill the hand) combined with H3027 yaÌ‚d (strength, power in a figurative sense) and the Hebrew word typically translated as “command” is H6680 tsaÌ‚vaÌ‚h (to command, charge, give orders, lay charge, give charge to, order).
    In all cases the expected consequence is obedience to that which is ordained.
    I would that your reader saw you publish that “God does ordain evil”.
    Seriously, is it your argument as per the actual meaning of “ordain” and its use in scripture that God establishes evil with God’s authority and such evil is to be obeyed? Or has God in fact said we are to purge evil and resist it?
    As noted, there are instances in which God permits or directs “evil” to accomplish some purpose in judgement of evil or disobedience, but there are no instances in which God “ordains evil” nor any instances in which God “commands evil” for purposes of creating evil, empowering evil, or establishing evil to be obeyed, all of which is what “ordain” means.

  8. michael
    2008 August 18 at 19:13

    Bethyada,
    come on, here you go again.
    You are hedging here when you put these words “now” into the equation:
    [[for purposes of creating evil]].
    I did not say that nor did I purport that as a “purpose” of God.
    Here is the “purpose” of God as far as I am concerned:::>
    Eph 3:10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
    Eph 3:11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,
    Eph 3:12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him.
    Well, hope that settles it?

  9. Starwind
    2008 August 18 at 21:34

    Michael:
    I did not say that nor did I purport [[for purposes of creating evil]] as a “purpose” of God.
    To “ordain” means to purposely create, empower or establish with obedience thereof intended.
    To “ordain evil” consequently means to purposely create, empower or establish evil with obedience thereof intended.
    That meaning is inherent in the use of the word “ordain”, and has been since bethyada rhetorically asked “does God ordain evil”. That meaning was not recently ‘put into the equation’, but rather the implicit conflict of God’s purpose raised by your misconstruing the meaning of “ordain evil” has recently been exposed.
    But as you belatedly recognize, ordaining evil is in fact not one of God’s purposes, and consequently you were incorrect to have expected bethyada to publish that “God does ordain evil”.

  10. michael
    2008 August 18 at 22:11

    starwind
    thanks for your comments.
    God ordains evil.

  11. michael
    2008 August 19 at 16:07

    Starwind, BY,
    God ordains evil.
    Psa 54:5 He will return the evil to my enemies; in your faithfulness put an end to them.
    God “is not” evil. He did create beings who “turned” against God.
    As the Prophets have revealed by the Holy Ghost revealing deep within their “created” spirits enough of the mystery, we that want to know know that Lucifer became Satan because he wanted to be like God.
    Is God evil? No.
    Does God “ordain” evil? Yes.
    Are we now trying to strain at the camel and swallow the gnat?
    I am not putting this forth for argumentative purposes. Only that your readers can fairly judge my exegesis.
    Obviously we do not agree.
    Let me put forth Hebrew for the two words that make it stick so to speak, the point I make.
    Above I quote Psalm 54:5.
    Here is the Hebrew word for the translated English word, “reward”. After, I will quote the Hebrew word for “evil” used here in it’s English equivalent.
    reward:
    שׁוּב
    shûb
    shoob
    A primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverbially again: – ([break, build, circumcise, dig, do anything, do evil, feed, lay down, lie down, lodge, make, rejoice, send, take, weep]) X again, (cause to) answer (+ again), X in any case (wise), X at all, averse, bring (again, back, home again), call [to mind], carry again (back), cease, X certainly, come again (back) X consider, + continually, convert, deliver (again), + deny, draw back, fetch home again, X fro, get [oneself] (back) again, X give (again), go again (back, home), [go] out, hinder, let, [see] more, X needs, be past, X pay, pervert, pull in again, put (again, up again), recall, recompense, recover, refresh, relieve, render (again), X repent, requite, rescue, restore, retrieve, (cause to, make to) return, reverse, reward, + say nay, send back, set again, slide back, still, X surely, take back (off), (cause to, make to) turn (again, self again, away, back, back again, backward, from, off), withdraw.
    evil:
    רעה רע
    ra‛ râ‛âh
    rah, raw-aw’
    From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: – adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]
    There should be enough understanding in there for you both to agree with my interpretation now? I don’t believe that you will seeing how committed you have been forthcoming with your opposition to my position telling me I am wrong.
    That’s a dangerous place to begin with.

  12. michael
    2008 August 19 at 16:11

    I believe a demon made this system malfunction? :)

  13. Starwind
    2008 August 19 at 17:54

    michael:
    Let me put forth Hebrew for the two words that make it stick so to speak, the point I make.
    Psa 54:5

    [NASB] He will recompense the evil to my foes; Destroy them in Your faithfulness.
    [YLT] Turn back doth the evil thing to mine enemies, In Thy truth cut them off.
    [ESV] He will return the evil to my enemies; in your faithfulness put an end to them.
    [JPS] He will requite the evil unto them that lie in wait for me; destroy Thou them in Thy truth.
    [Brenton] He shall return evil to mine enemies; utterly destroy them in thy truth.
    [KJV] He shall reward evil unto mine enemies: cut them off in thy truth.

    The intent of the passage is obviously that God didn’t “ordain” (establish, authorize, empower or order with any expectation of obedience) evil, but rather the passage reflects David’s expectation that God would somehow mete out judgement for the evil done against David commensurately – eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, evil for evil.
    As previously noted God merely need permit evil against David enemies to satisfy David’s expectation. Also as previously noted ‘evil’ when used as a noun rather than as an adjective, may be translated as disaster or calamity. The NASB translation of the Hebrew word “shoob” (H7725) as recompense puts it most accurately. God can recompense David’s enemies by permitting disaster or calamity against them.
    The passage doesn’t read “He shall ordain evil unto mine enemies: cut them off in thy truth.”, does it. Nowhere does “shoob” mean “ordain”, which is why you are now trying to distort its meaning as well.
    Twisting scripture and the meanings of words to suit yourself is the dangerous place to be.

  14. michael
    2008 August 19 at 19:22

    Again Starwind,
    thank you for your comments. Please refer me to where I at anytime in this debate make reference to the word “ordain” using it the way you are?
    I believe the question and topic is from BY. You and BY use that word ordain in the way that best proves your point. I believe you are twisting the understanding of God’s use of evil and evil things to fit your worldview, paradigm.
    I am using the word ordain in the sense as I first noted from these verses:
    1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’
    1Ki 22:23 Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you.”
    Now I will offer you more Hebrew out of these verses 1Ki 22:22-23:
    God speaking, [he said]: ‘âmar
    aw-mar’
    God speaking, [go forth]: yâtsâ’
    yaw-tsaw’
    God speaking again, [hath put]:
    **note the word “ordain” in this definition**
    nâthan
    naw-than’
    And finally, God speaking, “strongly” here, [hath spoken]: dâbar
    daw-bar’ [evil]: ra‛ râ‛âh
    rah, raw-aw’
    God ordains evil and when He speaks forth evil, obedience of it comes from Him to him, or them, the “evil” that is intended to come forth from God to them.
    God’s “evil” He ordains is not man’s or demons.
    Jesus said this to Pilate about the “evil” he was about to do to Him:
    Joh 19:10 So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?”
    Joh 19:11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”
    I will assert, the greatest “evil” ever done was “by God” the Father and “by God” the Holy Ghost and it was done unto Christ!
    Thank God for that!
    Paul said it this way and please note who is doing what to who for who???:
    2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
    If God did not make His Son sin, we would never become the righteousness of God or hope in the free gift of Eternal Life.
    I am indeed glad God ordains evil.

  15. Starwind
    2008 August 19 at 19:52

    michael:
    Please refer me to where I at anytime in this debate make reference to the word “ordain” using it the way you are?
    As you admit, that is precisely the problem. You don’t use the word “ordain” as it is defined either in English or its Hebrew sources.
    You haven’t demonstrated at all from scripture, that God “ordains evil”, as those words are defined. You have merely claimed such and misconstrued unrelated passages and then criticized bethyada for not following suit.
    Just because you claim God “ordains evil” doesn’t make it so. You claim it without acknowledging what “ordain” actually means or entails and without offering one passage where God actually “ordains evil”. I have no doubt you have searched for passages wherein God actually “ordains evil” to buttress your otherwise empty argument, and failing to find any you have resorted to distorting the meaning of words in unrelated passages, all to evade admitting your mistake.
    If you could constrain your overactive imagination to the words as defined and used in scripture, you’d have no argument. But then that is exactly what you wish to avoid, isn’t it.

  16. michael
    2008 August 19 at 20:03

    starwind
    don’t be so foolish!
    Why not read 1 Kings 22: 22-23 in Hebrew?
    Here is the word seeing this system only allows for 3,000 words before it redacts the whole:
    נתן
    nâthan
    naw-than’
    A primitive root; to give, used with great latitude of application (put, make, etc.): – add, apply, appoint, ascribe, assign, X avenge, X be ([healed]), bestow, bring (forth, hither), cast, cause, charge, come, commit consider, count, + cry, deliver (up), direct, distribute do, X doubtless, X without fail, fasten, frame, X get, give (forth, over, up), grant, hang (up), X have, X indeed, lay (unto charge, up), (give) leave, lend, let (out), + lie, lift up, make, + O that, occupy, offer, ordain, pay, perform, place, pour, print, X pull, put (forth), recompense, render, requite, restore, send (out), set (forth), shew, shoot forth (up). + sing, + slander, strike, [sub-] mit, suffer, X surely, X take, thrust, trade, turn, utter, + weep, X willingly, + withdraw, + would (to) God, yield.
    This is what God is doing, not man or demons, albeit it is a spirit that comes forth and volunteers to do it!

  17. Starwind
    2008 August 19 at 20:36

    michael:
    Why not read 1 Kings 22: 22-23 in Hebrew?
    1Ki 22:23

    [NASB] Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you.”
    [ESV] Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you.”
    [NIV] “So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.”
    [KJV] Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
    [YLT] And now, lo, Jehovah hath put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and Jehovah hath spoken concerning thee–evil.’

    As previously noted, several times now, when used as a noun the Hebrew “ra” is more properly translated as calamity or disaster, not ethical evil. And declaring or proclaiming is not “ordaining”. Ordaining conotes consecration, enactment, empowerment and authorization with obedience to that which is ordained to follow. When God judges an evil doer (as in 1 Ki 22:23) God does not desire obedience to the false prophets nor is God empowering or authorizing the lies which they will speak. God is bringing calamity and disater on them and any who follow them, through the falsehoods they speak, which falsehoods they have always spoken prior to God allowing a lying spirit in their mouths, God has merely given them over (in judgement) to that which they have been wont all along. God did not need to “ordain” anything.
    Declaring disaster in judgement is not ordaining evil in general.
    albeit it is a spirit that comes forth and volunteers to do it!
    Indeed. God didn’t “ordain” that spirit, God merely permitted it. The facts are in front of you michael, stop distorting them.

  18. michael
    2008 August 19 at 23:27

    starwind
    you can keep dodging and hedging yourself.
    The fact is you and I see and interpret the Scripture in an entirely different light.
    Why not go to the Greek and address Jesus’ own words to Pilate?
    Or are you insisting that you have something to do with your choice in the matter as in you participate with God about Salvation?
    Do you consider yourself Arminian?

  19. Starwind
    2008 August 20 at 00:50

    michael:
    The fact is you and I see and interpret the Scripture in an entirely different light.
    Indeed. Your light needs batteries.
    You’ve repeatedly demonstrated now that you disregard the actual meanings of words; English, Hebrew or Greek their meaning matters little to you. What scripture actually says matters little to you. Your efforts to recast God’s character as other than what scripture says, as something you understand through “revelation”, regardless of how contrary it is to scripture, demonstrates cultic tendancies.
    Why not go to the Greek and address Jesus’ own words to Pilate?
    There is nothing in the Greek or any other language to support your argument that “God ordains sin”. Yes God ordains authority in Pilate and Caiaphas, but no, God does not ordain the sin committed under that authority, whether in Pilate or Caiaphas. God exhorts that all rulers be Godly and just, not sinful.

    Pro 8:15-16 “By me kings reign, And rulers decree justice. 16 “By me princes rule, and nobles, All who judge rightly.
    Pro 16:12 It is an abomination for kings to commit wicked acts, For a throne is established on righteousness.

    God ordained Jesus’ sacrifice. God did not ordain the sin for which Jesus died. God permitted His Son to be betrayed and murdered, God did not ordain the betrayer and murderer(s).
    Arguably, He died for all our sins, but my sins are not ordained.
    You are free to tell the world what you believe. There will come a day when you’ll have to explain your unscriptural beliefs to God.

  20. michael
    2008 August 20 at 01:54

    Starwind
    wow, from evil to sin now.
    twisting,
    Here:
    Rom 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.
    I suggest you take to heart Peter’s admonition of the Psalm:
    Psa 34:12 What man is there who desires life and loves many days, that he may see good?
    Psa 34:13 Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit.
    Psa 34:14 Turn away from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.
    Psa 34:15 The eyes of the LORD are toward the righteous and his ears toward their cry.
    Psa 34:16 The face of the LORD is against those who do evil, to cut off the memory of them from the earth.
    Your temper tantrums and scoldings do reveal the motivation and lust to be proven right and sadly all you are doing is revealing more of yourself.
    I do have a sad place in my heart for you Starwind.
    by His Grace through His Faith

  21. Starwind
    2008 August 20 at 02:08

    michael:
    wow, from evil to sin now.
    Here, let me help you substitute “evil” for “sin” so as to avoid further confusion:

    There is nothing in the Greek or any other language to support your argument that “God ordains evil”. Yes God ordains authority in Pilate and Caiaphas, but no, God does not ordain the evil committed under that authority, whether in Pilate or Caiaphas. God exhorts that all rulers be Godly and just, not evil.

    You can have the last word(s)

  22. 2008 August 20 at 11:29

    michael I believe a demon made this system malfunction? :)
    Yours and Starwind’s duplicate posts are now sorted.
    michael Do you consider yourself Arminian?
    Now that made me laugh.
    ***
    Starwind, I am with you here but I do think the God ordaining Jesus’ death does need a more elaborate answer which I will try and get around to.
    ***
    You 2 are welcome to go at it hammer and tongs :)
    I will add that both direct insults and condescension are equally grating.
    Michael, if I may, can I suggest you be more focused in your answers. All of us here claim to appeal to Scripture. You need to defend what you think Scripture is saying and why.
    .

  23. Starwind
    2008 August 20 at 14:09

    bethyada:
    I will add that both direct insults and condescension are equally grating.
    But Dad!!! Michael started it! He hit me first!

  24. michael
    2008 August 20 at 17:51

    Bethyada,
    God ordains evil.
    That is quite focused and direct.
    Let me ask you to state your theological position. Are you Arminian?
    Are you of a Calvinist bent?
    Are you Lutheran?
    Are you an “I don’t know yet”?

  25. michael
    2008 August 20 at 17:58

    Starwind,
    you wrote: [Arguably, He died for all our sins, but my sins are not ordained.]
    So, are you of the position that you were not born with Adam’s nature and so you have the ability not to sin or do evil?
    And my question to BY above I would ask of you also. Are you what theologically, Arminian, Calvinist, Lutheran, Baptist????

  26. michael
    2008 August 20 at 18:43

    BY or STARWIND
    care to comment on this characterization?
    That grace in effectual calling is not efficacious and invincible, but resistible, so that all actual conversions are the joint result of this grace and the sinner’s will working abreast. That Christ died equally for the non-elect and the elect, providing an indefinite, universal atonement for all; and that true converts may, and sometimes do, fall away totally and finally from the state of grace and salvation; their perseverance therein depending not on efficacious grace, but on their own free will to continue in gospel duties.
    Is this sound theology in your judgment and opinion?

  27. Starwind
    2008 August 20 at 19:21

    michael:
    are you of the position that you were not born with Adam’s nature
    No.
    so you have the ability not to sin or do evil?
    As I’m now born again of the Spirit, yes, though I find I still ‘do what I don’t want to do’.
    I don’t subscribe to any particular system of theology. I’m a berean.

  28. michael
    2008 August 20 at 19:36

    Starwind,
    well that says a lot!
    Me too. I search the Scriptures daily and have for over 30 years.
    Goes to show that even men of the Word don’t think alike!
    Let’s keep the debate going though. I have other matters of concern that will come out over time. If not in here, elsewhere as this blog phenomenon grows and grows via the internet!
    God does ordain evil. I know you too will come to see it. Maybe not now or ever in this lifetime, but, as the Swiss say, tick tock, tick tock!!!

  29. Starwind
    2008 August 20 at 20:02

    Michael:
    Let’s keep the debate going though.
    Sincerely, I have no desire to participate without adherence to standard definitions and exegesis of scripture. For example, arguing God “ordains evil” while ignoring the definitions of ordain and failing to exegete any scripture wherein God actually “ordained” evil, is a non-starter.
    Nor do I have any desire to be dragged off into millennia-old debates of Calvinism or hypercalvinism. Calvin himself would no longer recognize what Calvinism has become. I’ve done that and have several t-shirts. I’ve yet to see hypercalvinist views supported with sound exegesis of actual scripture using standard definitions, though I frequently see the boast. The hypercalvinist invariably argues that “free doesn’t really mean free”, that God has foreordained our choices without us knowing our choices aren’t really free, and that when God asks us to choose He actually has chosen for us from before the foundations of the world.
    It is a theology I have little regard for, and I’ve yet to encounter any support for it that is edifying even if unpersuasive.
    If you want to know what I think, read Geisler’s “Chosen but Free”, and if you can then refute Geisler with sound exegesis, I’ll listen.

  30. michael
    2008 August 20 at 20:40

    I can only reply Starwind, you must be a young mind and not very experienced in the world we live in.
    I am neither an Arminian or Calvinist or Hyper.
    I am a man of the Word. And your little diddly there proves the subtleness of your position. You do believe you have something “to contribute” to Grace and Salvation and when you won’t admit that, you undermine your own words.
    The boldness of your craftiness is apparent, crafty nevertheless.
    I am sorry for that. And the position I hold has no defense to your position except to accept you as you are and proclaim the Gospel. It is the Gospel that does the “perfect” work, nothing left for me to do about it.
    Col 1:6 which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing–as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth,
    The Word of God stands alone and needs no exegesis from me or you. I am honored to preach and teach His Word, handling it accurately. I will contend earnestly for the Faith once delivered to the Saints.
    I suppose those last words you too claim as your own?
    There is a proper distinction between the Law and the Gospel. And by your very words you are comdemned not knowing the distinctions.
    That is in no way an accusation, just a stated observation from me about you. You have done well making your own observations and assertions as well.

  31. Starwind
    2008 August 20 at 21:09

    michael:
    lol – me thinks you doth protest too much.

  32. 2008 September 7 at 01:40

    Children please.
    shakes head

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